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HRH Prince El Hassan bin Talal
in interview with James Naughtie
BBC Radio 4 Today Programme
6th October 2003

James Naughtie:
It is Yom Kippur, the Jewish Day of Atonement, a solemn day in Israel, and across the Middle East it’s a day of intense argument and high emotion. Not since the early seventies has Israel struck with such force inside Syria as against targets which it has described as ‘terrorist training camps’. Syria says there are no such camps. The attack of course was in response to the latest suicide bombing in Israel which killed 20 people in a restaurant in Haifa at the weekend. The Israeli ambassador to the UN, Dan Gillerman, says his country will continue to retaliate against those it considered to be supporters of terrorism:
(Dan Gillerman)
"Israel attacked a training camp of a terrorist organisation which unfortunately is harboured, financed and supported by a neighbouring country, but Syria being part of the axis of evil, probably after Saddam Hussein has gone, Syria is the main harbourer, perpetrator, financer and initiator of terror in the region, and Israel will continue to, and the Israeli government will continue to do everything that is necessary to protect its citizens and the lives of its children.”

The American ambassador to the UN, John Negroponte, also gave an ominous warning to Syria:

“The United States believes that Syria is on the wrong side of the war on terrorism. We have been clear of the need for Syria to cease harbouring terrorist groups. Specific directions for terrorist acts continue to be issued from terrorist groups based in Syria. We believe it is in Syria’s interest and in the broader interest of Middle East peace for Syria to stop harbouring and supporting the groups that perpetrate terrorist acts such as the one that occurred in Haifa.”

JN:
That was John Negroponte, the American ambassador to the UN. Well the British ambassador there said that Israel’s action was unacceptable and an escalation. But Emyr Jones Parry said that the terrorists were being allowed to attack Israel with impunity. It is clear that the Middle East crisis is at a desperately dangerous moment and with an American election approaching, no-one expects the White House to take any new initiatives. Political sensitivities in the United States tend to prevent that in an election season and Israel’s decision to take its retaliation into Syrian territory does raise the stakes.

We’re joined now from the Royal Palace in the Jordanian capital, Amman, by Prince El Hassan bin Talal, uncle to the King, brother of the late King Hussein, who chairs the Arab Thought Forum, that’s a pan Arab group that was set up to try to think positively about the future of the Middle East.
Prince Hassan, Good Morning to you.

HRH:
Good Morning.

JN:
This is obviously a sad day for everyone who’s concerned about progress in the Middle East. How do you interpret the happenings over the weekend?

HRH:
I think it’s a Day of Atonement for us all in the Middle East, I think that terrorism is an affront to humanity, but in terms of interpretation I think that the greatest challenge to the Security Council and to the United States commitment to courage and creativity lies, not in enforcing stability through military might, or indeed through the military might of others, which can never succeed in the long run, but in building security through foreign policies that address the political roots of terrorism. We, as Arabs and Israelis, have been flouting international legalities since 1948. We have occupied each other’s land and I think that the time has come to recognise the fact that we need an international Versailles to address the development of a regional code of conduct for the region as a whole. If we think laterally, the situation in Iraq is going from bad to worse; and I do feel that John Bolton, the Under-secretary of the US’ State Department’s statement, two weeks ago, where he vehemently attacked Syria and likened Syria to Iran, North Korea and Libya and told a Congressional hearing that Syria is developing weapons of mass destruction and supporting terrorist organisations, is an indicator of a policy decision, implicitly, if not explicitly, in Washington. Syria’s foreign minister, of course, rejected US accusations, but I think we’re into the slanging match which I don’t want to get into. As I said, two wrongs don’t make a right – the killing of innocent civilians, Arabs and Jews in Israel continues. According to Bt’selem, the Israeli information centre for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories, up until August this year, 2,202 Palestinians died; 773 Israelis; 391 Palestinian minors and 408 houses were demolished – including hundreds that have died since the beginning of the year.

JN:
Well that does put it in context. Let me ask you, before I move to the question of international efforts to promote peace to which you referred, let me ask you the simple question which many people are asking this morning. Israel justifies its attack on that ‘training camp’ as it identifies it in Syria, on the grounds that Syria continues to support the kind of terrorism which you, among so many others, regret. Do you believe that Syria does support that kind of terrorist activity or not?

HRH:
Well, I’m not a government official and I can only believe my eyes – I saw the Israeli film clip, taken from Iranian television, describing the camp and its contents, I’ve also heard Hamas leaders denying that Hamas and Jihad were in that camp, however they went on, I think with a patent contradiction, by saying that this is an attempt to possibly reach Hamas and Jihad leaders outside the Occupied Territories, so one will never really know until you actually get to the site and inspect it, and what I am trying to say in this brief interview is that hiding behind one excuse or another, governments tend to violate international humanitarian and human rights law, whether through continued occupation or through taking the law into your own hands – pre-emptive strikes of course, are an issue that has been discussed ever since Afghanistan and Iraq – the whole issue of the war against terror and the war against the other, in this case Arabs and Israelis, has been intertwined, and I think that in such situations, international reprimands and pressures for compliance will continue to be ignored unless we develop a code of conduct, which is why I am calling for an international conference to discuss the situation of stability in the region before we end up with a war with Syria, and a war with Iran and possibly a war with North Korea as well.

JN:
Let me ask you how such a conference could be brokered, if, and you quote Mr Bolton as an under-secretary in the State Department making what you regard as unhelpful comments talking to a congressional committee, who could broker such a conference with any prospect of success if it wasn’t backed by the United States?

HRH:
Well, as Mr Bolton goes on to say – it’s a very balanced statement in that sense – he says that the US must keep open every option, use every tool, to dissuade Syria and others from pursuing chemical, biological or nuclear weapons. So when he says ‘every tool’ that includes diplomatic tools? I think that the United States is capable of turning to statesman mode from political mode, the politics of the region are so intertwined with domestic American politics, and as you mentioned earlier, moving towards American elections, I just wonder what focus there is going to be on an American, or for that matter, a European, foreign policy for this region?

JN:
Precisely. Who can move, I mean, do you expect for example, Mr Blair to take a lead in this? I mean he says he’s desperately concerned about what’s happening in the Israeli-Palestinian situation.

HRH:
Well, I think it would be a great achievement if Mr Blair could move, if for that matter, the European Presidency could move, but one thing is clear to me, that I feel that hollow feeling that I felt in 1967, that we’re on a runaway train towards a potential new war. In 1967, as you know, international legality was flouted, UN troops were withdrawn from the region, the UN basically withdrew its influence from peacemaking and for the Secretary General just to sit back and condemn, is simply not enough.

JN:
Those are very strong words – and you’re not somebody who is given to inflammatory statements as we all know – do you believe that the prospect of a Middle East War, and we’re not just talking about the Israeli-Palestine dispute, but a Middle East War, is closer now than it’s been for a generation.

HRH:
I do. I very sadly do, and I will quote your own Oliver Cromwell: “When enemies are hopeless, who will answer for the blood, the ruin, and trouble.” And desperate men are doing desperate things.
JN:
How can it be stopped?

HRH:
I think it can only be stopped by accepting that the swamps of terror cannot be dried by bomb craters, but by changing the environment and creating a situation susceptible to sustainable human development and dignity. And by that I mean, we need an Organisation of Security and Cooperation for this region, we need a code of conduct for this region, we need a statesmanlike meeting for this region which says that this region is not just unilaterally oil interests and weapons sales, but is a region with people who are not hell’s firewood, whether Jews, Arabs, Christians, Muslims, and the time has come to look at the region from Cairo to Delhi and try to apply the same norms. Yes if we can’t make progress on weapons of mass destruction, let’s make progress on the war on terror; if we can’t do either of those, let’s make progress on a poverty alleviation programme.

JN:
Can you envisage any bolt of lightning that would cause leaders across the Arab world, of the great nations in that region, and the leaders of Israel, to come together with that purpose in mind. Is it in any way, despite the dangers that you’re facing, realistic?

HRH:
I think that the only bolt of lighting is for them to realise that their unilateral relations with the United States may be excellent, but for the United States to say to them that because of these unilateral relations, and I’m talking about governments, not about people’s perceptions, you have to abide by, we all have to abide by international legality and we have to develop a Middle East which is a region in substance and reality, with rights and responsibilities for governments and non-governmental groups, otherwise I think we’re going to continue to see the spiral towards the fragmentation of the nation-state, which is essentially a part of the problem, and towards the Balkanisation of the region.

JN:
Prince Hassan in Amman, thank you very much indeed for joining us.

HRH:
Thank you

Prince Hassan bin Talal of Jordan is moderator of the World Conference on Religion and Peace and president of the Club of Rome.